I feel really stupid

[gwynhefar]

How did I not know the Tudors were originally Welsh?

I'm tracing back the Tudor line on my dad's side and I start getting all these Welsh names and Tudor begins to be spelled Tewdwr. Well, duh! So now I've got my biological father's line going back to (mythologically speaking) Odin, and my dad's line going back to Beli and Dôn. I've promised my mother I'll give her a call as soon as I find a royal and/or divine ancestor in her tree *g*

I am realising, as I go through all this stuff, just how very lacking my knowledge of British history is, however. I blame a strong American bias in my secondary history education, but I suppose I have no excuse for not learning more on my own. Must start doing that.

Comments

[e-scapism101.livejournal.com]

I always forget too. The book I'm reading right now mentions that Arthur, Henry VIII older brother, was the first Prince of Wales in a long while to actually have much Welsh ancestry.

I'm tempted to get myself a subscription to Ancestry.com when I start working again, even though I'm reasonably sure I'm not descended from anyone interesting.

[gwynraven.livejournal.com]

You might be surprised. I think when you get down to it, everyone's descended from someone interesting somewhere. I mean, really . . . if I ended up with royal lines in two out of the three pedigrees I'm investigating it can't be that rare. Neither my dad nor my biological father or their families were in any way aware of their exalted lineage. And it's fun!

[ellyssian.livejournal.com]

I've got the Bowen line going back to Beli Mawr in my tree as well, although the generational math of the line is pretty untrustworthy.

I finally managed to wrestle the whole tree onto the family site, but in so doing, I lost the names of all 3134 people. I'm working on re-enterting that data - and hopefully getting a decent GEDCOM out of it - but I've only managed to correct 206 of them. Long way to go! =)

[gwynraven.livejournal.com]

Yeah I've got mine in Ancestry.com and it's got almost 4000 names in it right now. Does myheritage.com have an import function for other sites? I actually find Ancestry's tree view rather unweildy, but their resources make up for it.

I had problems with the generational math with the Beli Mawr line as well. I found sources placing him in both the 1st and 5th centuries CE! I went with 1st century because it made more sense given some of the other more reliable dates in the tree. Be nice if some of the Welsh kings were identified by more than simply their given name and their father's given name. I had one Owain ap Llewellyn ap Owain ap Llewellyn in my tree -- try working out generational math when that's all you have to go on!

I'm a little disappointed that the Welsh line is my adoptive father's and therefore not biologically my relations, but I'm convincing myself it's ok to claim them anyway :)

[zarhooie.livejournal.com]

What site are you working with?

[gwynraven.livejournal.com]

I'm using Ancestry.com at the moment.

[luis-mw.livejournal.com]

... just how very lacking my knowledge of British history is...

It's probably better than mine and I was born here. Admittedly, I dropped history after my 2nd year because of subject choices that were forced on me, and also because it was appallingly taught (ok, who can recite the names and dates of all the kings and queens from William to Victoria the quickest?). I'm learning so much more now that I dress up in silly costumes...

[silme.livejournal.com]

I've been reading about Nest, Rhys ap Tewdwr's daughter. :)

I learnt some English history in school, but a lot was self-taught at first. The Six Wives of Henry VIII and Elizabeth R were on TV when I was young, and I watched them with my brother, whose BA in history had a focus on British history. And I read. A lot. So I could actually converse with him a little about it. I've been a big fan of British history for a long time.

But then I took English history courses as an undergrad as well, which were fun. First a year-long survey, then a one-semester class just on the Tudors.

[gwynraven.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Nest shows up in my tree as well. I thought it an interesting name :) I'll have to read more about her. You have a book you could recommend?

I've been meaning to rectify my appalling ignorance when it comes to History in general and British History in particular for awhile now, but somehow other topics keep pushing their way to the top of the to-read pile.

[silme.livejournal.com]

I own one that I bought in Wales -- privately published, sort of historical fiction -- that I'm reading in small bits and pieces. Let me go upstairs later and check it out. It's not great, but it was about her and was at the castle where we were visiting (and was associated with her).

Wait, here it is. Nest, the Story of a Welsh Princess by Bryan Alderson.

I want to try this one: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Princess-Nest-Wales-Seductress-English/dp/0752437712/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218568985&sr=8-1

[gwynraven.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that just went on my wishlist :)

[silme.livejournal.com]

One day, we'll get each other for the Tamson House Secret Santa. ;)

[gwynraven.livejournal.com]

That would be nice :)

[piratejenny.livejournal.com]

Shame on you!!!!

Of course, I doubt you spent your college years obsessively studying the history of the Isles, so you can be forgiven.

If it makes you feel any better, I recently had to give my husband a crash course in Welsh history. (He asked why he'd want to go to Wales and what's so interesting about it. He didn't know about the Tudors either.)

[gwynraven.livejournal.com]

No, I spent my college years obsessively studying the *literature* of the Isles, which while it may contain some history, is not the same thing :)

[piratejenny.livejournal.com]

A few more credits and I would have had a double major. IF medieval studies had been a major the year a graduated and not a minor. They didn't have specialized degree programs then.

Of course now, I could have majored in Celtic studies and taken Irish, like I wanted to (urp) 19 years ago...

[gwynraven.livejournal.com]

Oh I would have loved to have done Celtic studies. They didn't even have any classes in Celtic studies when I was in school. Closest they had was British history, literature, etc., which usually touched on some Irish, Scottish, and/or Welsh sources.

None of the Celtic languages were options either. Every now and then I decide I'm going to learn Irish and take a few lessons out of do-it-yourself books or websites, but it's really hard to keep up without hearing the language spoken or having any kind of feedback, so I rarely get past the first couple of lessons.

[straif.livejournal.com]

If you ever decided to try Welsh instead, I know of a number of really good resources and communities. Oh, and I happen to know of a week-long annual course for Welsh learners in North America.

[gwynraven.livejournal.com]

I've actually considered it. Ireland and Wales are the two Celtic lands I feel the strongest pull toward, and while my last name is Irish, my first name is Welsh :) I'd be happy for any resources you could provide.

[straif.livejournal.com]

The single best place to start is http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/learnwelsh/ There are a number of great resources on the site, I particularly recommend the Catchphrase series.

The annual course is http://www.madog.org -- I've done this for three years now. It is incredible.

[gwynraven.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[piratejenny.livejournal.com]

Don't I know it! I do have learning Irish on CD also, for the computer, but it's still hard outside of a class. Part of it is that there are so many dialects. I do plan on going back to the Irish classes (there's a local community college that offers night classes), but it's such a rush getting back from work then rushing off to class that I need to cut some other stress out of my life first. If I can figure out how to do that.

[straif.livejournal.com]

When the Tudors took the throne, there was great hope in Wales that the Welsh would be given a bit of respect and not be treated quite so much like an occupied nation. Instead they were given the Acts of Union--basically, Henry VIII said "y'all are English now, and if you want a job in government you have to no hablo Cymraeg and speake like the Englishe."

At one time in Wales it was quite important to be able to trace your ancestry back to someone of historical importance. If a connection could not be found, it was not uncommon to create one. A popular choice was Llywarch Hen, a 6-7th century prince of Rheged (possibly a poet as well, but that is a bit dubious for various reasons). In the earlier sources, it is said that he fathered 24 sons in his 100 year lifetime. After his death, that number swelled to 39 plus a handful of daughters. The increase was due to people "discovering" a link to Old Llywarch.

There is (to the best of my knowledge) no hard evidence that Beli Mawr was a historical person, however a couple sources (most notably the Triads and Mabinogion) name him as the father of Caswallawn (Cassivellaunus), who was a historical British chieftain that fought against Julius Caesar.

[gwynraven.livejournal.com]

I actually learned most of this as I was doing my research (except for the Henry VIII and the 'no hablo Cymraeg' bit - I love your phrasing!!) I read a bit about Cassivellaunus when I read a biography of Boudicca awhile back. The line I have actually claims to be descended from Nudd/Lludd, Beli Mawr's son. I include mythological figures on my tree facetiously -- I'm well aware that in most cases they were not historical personages (or if they were, the details are vastly exaggerated or invented) but I kinda like the idea of having them on there anyway :) Besides, it's often hard to tell exactly where in a supposed divine lineage the change from mythological to historical actually occurs. One of my other lines traces the Saxon kings back to Woden, and while I can say *this* person was a historical king, and *this* person was a mythological figure, I really have no idea at what point in between the change occurred.

If nothing else, my new obsession with genealogy is doing wonders for my history education.